Water-boarding

Let us wonder about a few things. 

1. With the attack against Mumbai and the terrorist captured in India, I just wonder if India will us Water-Boarding to get information out of the captured terrorist?

2. Will Obama and his new team (Bush’s defense secretary) still use Water-Boarding as an information tactic with Obama’s foreign affairs looks a lot like a ninth year of Bush? 

Before I give my views on the highly controversial subject, we should all have an idea of what we are talking about.  Keep in the back of your minds that the terrorists use any means and don’t follow the Geneva Convention, unless they are caught, then they want protection under the Convention.  It is our sons and daughters that get tortured by all means and then killed.  I am not saying we need to lower ourselves to the terrorist’s level, I am just stating a fact!
  
What is water-boarding?
 
Water-boarding involves a prisoner being stretched on his back or hung upside down, having a cloth pushed into his mouth and/or plastic film placed over his face and having water poured onto his face.  He gags almost immediately.
 
Does it come under a technical definition of torture?
 
Torture is defined by the 1949 UN Convention against Torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person..." in order to get information.  The U.S. is signed up to the Convention.  Human rights groups and many governments say that it does constitute torture.  The United States does not agree.
 
So why has the U.S. used water-boarding?
 
Because it does not classify water-boarding as torture and regards it an effective method in a small number of cases.  It makes a distinction between "torture,” which it accepts is banned by U.S. and international law, and so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques.”  These include not only water-boarding but sleep deprivation, subjection to cold and long periods of standing, holding your arms out in front of you for extended periods of time, and some slapping. The U.S. feels no physical long-term effects linger.  It works by finding people’s fears and exploiting them.
 
Isn't the U.S. military banned from using water-boarding?
 
Yes.  In 2006 a new army manual on collecting intelligence banned torture and degrading treatment, including water-boarding, forced nakedness, hooding and sexual humiliation. The manual's publication followed the scandals at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and the passing of the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which prohibited the "cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment or punishment" of detainees.
 
So why is the CIA allowed to use it?
 
President Bush excluded the CIA from the restrictions imposed on the military.  He did so in an executive order in July 2007, which sought to define the American commitment to the Geneva Conventions' Common Article 3 prohibition on cruel, humiliating and degrading treatment and torture. The order declared that a CIA "program of detention and interrogation" complied with the Geneva Convention. The order listed interrogation methods and practices that are not allowed.  These range all the way from murder and rape to acts of humiliation. The banned methods did not, however, include the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques.  In a separate memorandum, President Bush drew up a list of allowed methods, but these have not been made public.
 
Is water-boarding effective?
 
A retired CIA agent has said a top al-Qaeda suspect was interrogated using a simulated drowning technique, but that he believes it was justified.  According to John Kiriakou, al-Qaeda suspect Abu Zubaydah "broke" within half a minute.  "From that day on, he answered every question," the retired agent said.  "The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”  The arguments about the efficacy of water-boarding reflect all arguments about similar methods.  Do they produce information or lies?  Can the information be obtained by other means?  And are they counter-productive?  So far, most information has been very helpful it stopping terrorists attacks.  This information may not have been made available without this technique.
 
Is water-boarding still used?
 
According to CIA officials, it has been used three times since 2001 but not since 2003.  The CIA Director General Mike Hayden, who took over in May 2006, indicated that he had taken the technique off a list of approved methods.  I would guess it is still being done.
 
Are there any moves in the U.S. to ban it by law?
 
Yes.  The US House of Representatives passed a bill in December 2007 that would ban the CIA from using water-boarding, mock executions and other harsh interrogation methods.  The bill has to go before the Senate and could be vetoed by President Bush.  The proposed legislation would require the CIA to follow the rules in the Army Field Manual.  It seeks to remove the ambiguity that surrounds the use of water-boarding.  The U.S. attorney-general has declined to rule on whether the method is torture.
 
Some say that our “Principles” are compromised using the enhanced interrogation technique of water-boarding.  I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself weighing the idea that water-boarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get after using the water-boarding technique.  And I struggle with it.
And as time has passed, and as September 11th has, you know, has moved farther and farther back into history it would be so easy to let down our guard. 
 
In the end, if it will save lives, not just American lives, but any lives it is worth it.  Is it torture?  Yes, but I will not lose any sleep, nor will I feel my morals and principles compromised.
 
Of the four wars in my lifetime, none came about because the U.S. was too strong. - Ronald Reagan 
 

 

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Comments

[Zach W.]

"Is it torture? Yes, but I will not lose any sleep, nor will I feel my morals and principles compromised."

It's a shame that someone who lives in a nation founded on the the idea that cruel and unusual punishment was not tolerable would condone any "any means necessary" approach. If you don't feel your morals or principles would be compromised by supporting torture, then that speaks volumes about the kinds of "morals and principles" you have.

[Steve T]

You know Zach, I did some checking and the post Randy did is almost the same as the one he did on his other blog. Now after he reposts you slam him with your own post questioning his morals and values. I don’t think he could be and clearer on how he feels. He does have morals and values, they just don’t fit your nice "kumbyya" naïve view of the world. So do you think Obama is going to get rid of the use because I don’t think he will.

Oh yeah here is your alter ego MrZippy13 and comments.

mrzippy13
It's not surprising you'd support something like waterboarding. However, I can't help but wonder if you'd support it if you'd been subjected to it. It's frightening to think that there are so many folks out there like you, who think that "any means necessary" is an acceptable way to conduct ourselves throughout the world. It's no wonder our nation's reputation throughout the world is as low as its ever been, and it's a shame that we've joined the ranks of nations like Iran, North Korea, Egypt, and China in condoning the use of torture.

June 7, 2008 9:07 PM
P Williams
MRZIPPY13,

It's not surprising that you are against waterboarding. You liberals are so scared of hurting people's feelings that it would be better to hold their hands and sing "kumbyya" and have warm fuzzies to hope the enemy tells you the truth. Give me a break! Get your head out of the sand! We are a powerful nation that too many eastern nations feel threatened by and therefore, feel the need to retaliate against. These nations are EVIL and EVIL will find a way to hurt the US!

Of course, I don't want to be subjected to waterboarding, but then again, I know I wouldn't have any reason to be subjected to such. You want us (the conservatives) to put ourselves in their shoes and see if we would still support it if we'd been subjected to it. What a ridiculous statement! But then again, I wouldn’t want to be dead either; therefore, I'm not going to subject myself to it on purpose. How about you put yourselves in the shoes of our military people being tortured in Iraq? Do you think they wanted that?? DO YOU?

You liberals are so against the war, and can have your anti-war antics and chest-thumping about how terrible it is that our troops are still over there...but when they get to come home, do you treat them with respect and offer to help them with their mental and physical needs? Are you there for them, really there for them? Don't just raise your flag on the holidays; support them even though you don't agree with what they might be doing. At least they are true Americans; they put us, you and me, ahead of themselves EVERY MINUTE of EVERY DAY!!!! I’m sure your response is that they shouldn’t be over there anyways; you are right, it’s better to have them attach us over here!

June 8, 2008 12:25 PM
mrzippy13
PWilliams, don't confuse my opposition to torture as a lack of support for our troops. I fully support our troops, which is why I want them brought home from the quagmire that is Iraq.

Further, I'd note that we're not talking about "hurting people's feelings;" we're talking about torture.

As for your claims that liberals don't support our troops when they come home, let's talk about conservative opposition to the new GI Bill, which would expand education benefits for veterans. Here's a couple of links for you:

www.salon.com/.../index.html

www.cnn.com/.../index.html

[Zach W.]

This is just for you, Steve:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242_pf.html

[Steve T]

Over on Blogging Blue my favorite Zach has an article Iraq vet: “I’m Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq”

I just would like to know who we tortured to cause 9/11 Zach? Please tell me! Please tell all of us!

Zach if Obama keeps water boarding after it has been released that British Army Tortured Obama’s Grandfather, does that make him a hypocritical on torture? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5276010.ece

Zach is totally against torture except when it is to torturing and killing babies during a procedure called abortion. Yes with that he is fine.

Zach is it all abortion you are ok with?

So partial birth abortion where they poke a hole in the baby’s brain and vacuum suck the baby out, you are cool with. Maybe that should be my next headline post.

I am sure those of us living during the 80’s remember the song 19 - Paul Hardcastle

Please key on the lyrics and keep in mind this part

Half of the Vietnam combat veterans suffered from what Psychiatrists call
Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder
Many vets complain of alienation, rage, or guilt
Some succumb to suicidal thoughts
Eight to Ten years after coming home almost eight-hundred-thousand men are
still fighting the Vietnam War

In 1965 Vietnam seemed like just another foreign war,
but it wasn't.
It was different in many ways, as so were those that did the fighting.
In World War II the average age of the combat soldier was 26...
In Vietnam he was 19.
In inininininin Vietnam he was 19.

(TV announcer's voice)
The shooting and fighting of the past two weeks continued today
25 miles west of Saigon
I really wasn't sure what was going on (Vet's Voice)

Nininini Nineteen, 19, Ni-nineteen 19
19,19,19,19

In Vietnam the combat soldier typically served a twelve month tour of duty but
was exposed to hostile fire almost everyday
Ninininininininininin 19 nininininninin 19

Hundreds of Thousands of men who saw heavy combat in Vietnam were arrested
since discharge
Their arrest rate is almost twice that of non-veterans of the same age.
There are no accurate figures of how many of these men have been incarcerated.
But, a Veterans Administration study concludes that the greater of Vets
exposure to combat could more likely affect his chances of being arrested or
convicted.

This is one legacy of the Vietnam War

(Singing Girls)
All those who remember the war
They won't forget what they've seen..
Destruction of men in their prime
whose average was 19
Dedededededede-Destruction
Dedededededede-Destruction
War, War
Dededede-Destruction, wa-wa-War, wa-War, War
Dedededededede-Destruction
War, War

After World War II the Men came home together on troop ships, but the Vietnam
Vet often arrived home within 48 hours of jungle combat
Perhaps the most dramatic difference between World War II and Vietnam was
coming home.. .none of them received a hero's welcome
None of them received a heroes welcome, none of them, none of them
Nenene Nenene None of them, none of them, none of them (etc...)
None of them received a hero's welcome
None of them received a hero's welcome

According to a Veteran's Administration study
Half of the Vietnam combat veterans suffered from what Psychiatrists call
Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder
Many vets complain of alienation, rage, or guilt
Some succumb to suicidal thoughts
Eight to Ten years after coming home almost eight-hundred-thousand men are
still fighting the Vietnam War

(Singing Girls)
Dedededededede-Destruction

Nininininininininin Nineteen, 19, Ni-nineteen 19
19,19,19,19
Nininininininininin Nineteen, 19, Ni-nineteen 19
19,19,19,19

(Soldiers Voice)
When we came back it was different.. Everybody wants to know "How'd it
happened to those guys over there
There's gotta be something wrong somewhere
We did what we had to do
There's gotta be something wrong somewhere
People wanted us to be ashamed of what it made us
Dad had no idea what he went to fight and he is now
All we want to do is come home
All we want to do is come home
What did we do it for
All we want to do is come home
Was it worth it?

[grumps]

Is there some corolary of Godwin's Law that relates to Paul hardcastle lyrics?

[Zach W.]

grumps, I'm not sure, but if not, then there should be!

[Steve T]

Grumps when you try and use your 50 cent words like “corolary” try and spell them correct. If you are going to try and pass yourself off as in the above click, know how to spell.

Now you do know trying to look smart using them makes you look foolish! What is it with you lefties that you like Nazi references?

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)

Corollaries and usage

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others invented later. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").

Godwin's Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. It does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, because although mentioning and trivializing Nazism in an online discussion, this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.

[grumps]

Steve,

It was a joke. Lighten up.

I apologize profusely if my mispelling somehow offended you. BTW, you mean "correctly" and "clique." If you're going to be a sanctimonious prick you should at least be accurate.

[Steve T]

Now who needs to lighten up? Grumps I never try to oversell myself. I am a blue collar high school educated conservative.

Are you always trying to make up what you lack in substance with big words or are you an elitist? I could be you are both!

[Steve T]

I am sure this practice doesn’t make Zach happy either.

Musicians Protest Blistering Music Used in Prisons to 'Break' Inmates

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,464686,00.html

[Steve T]

Cheney defends waterboarding use, Guantanamo

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=33264

Cheney, in an interview with ABC News, admitted he was aware he was aware that waterboarding was used on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged planner of the Sept. 11 attacks.

Waterboarding is used in interrogation to make a detainee feel as if he is drowning.

Asked if he thought, in hindsight, any of the tactics went too far, Cheney said, "I don't."

Questioned about whether he thought the reported use of waterboarding on Mohammed was appropriate, Cheney replied, "I do."

"I was aware of the programme, certainly, and involved in helping get the process cleared, as the agency in effect came in and wanted to know what they could and couldn't do," Cheney said.

"And they talked to me, as well as others, to explain what they wanted to do. And I supported it," he added.

"In previous wars, we've always exercised the right to capture the enemy and then hold them until the end of the conflict.

"If you bring them here to the U.S. and put them in our local court system, then they are entitled to all kinds of rights that we extend only to American citizens. Remember, these are unlawful combatants.

"Guantanamo has been very, very valuable," he said. "And I think they (the Obama administration) will discover that trying to close it is a very hard proposition."

[SteveT.]

Shocking study finds most will torture if ordered
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE4BI59I20081219